15 – Referrals vs. Sales Machine for Web Designers: What Actually Works?

[00:00:00] What’s up y’all? Welcome to the Web Design Empire where we share stories and strategies to help you build your web design empire from a side gig to multiple six figs. I’m John. Joined by Kelly. We’re full-time freelance web designers and we’ve escaped the real world. Broke up with our jobs, felt so good. Our bosses broke up with them. Broke up with our cubicles and our commutes over 15 years ago, and we haven’t looked back. You know, that’s not all the way a hundred percent true. I still have a commute. It’s about 15 steps. From my bedroom to this, you know? Have you ever seen that? Uh, that I just work from bed? I’m still in bed. No. What? There’s the, the hardly working from home. YouTube, music, video. Oh, Uhuh. He’s like, uh, change outta my sweats . Into work sweats. Into work sweats. Yeah. Commute to my office. It’s just 29 steps. Um, um, it’s called Hardly working from home. Hardly working from home. Was that like a COVID thing? Probably. It [00:01:00] was a COVID thing for sure. Yeah, it definitely was. I gotta say the titles. Earlier in the episode, I’ve been realizing, I’ve been saying them five minutes in, oh, whoops. And people are probably like, what’s today about? What is it? It’s just worth list me listening to or not. So today episode is referrals versus building a sales machine, or are they the same? So we’re talking about, mm-hmm. How your leads come into your business, and we’ll get into that Yes, in a little bit. It’s a recent conversation that we had with one of our coaching, uh, what, what do we call them? Coaching student coachee. Mentee, coachee, coach, I dunno, coachee, I don’t know. So yeah, she’s in our, go from single six figs to multiple six figs coaching program. Yes. And it’s definitely been, it’s been so fun to her business exploding right now. Yeah. And at the start it was just her and , now we’ve hooked her up with a couple subcontractors and it’s off to the races. Yes. She’s about to be, you know, what’s gonna happen, Kelly, is [00:02:00] she had this lovely little lifestyle boutique business and now it’s gonna be. What you say, drowning in work, it’s gonna, that’s what’s gonna happen. Well, that’s not the goal. The goal is to not drown in the work and to set her up for success and not burnout. But yes, she’s got some growing pains right now, which is great. Yeah, I’m really excited to see. Where she ends up in a few months here because , it’s all good things for her right now, but yeah, do you have anything going on? I know you do. Anything exciting you would like to share? Exciting. I have another startup that I’m working on with the singer in my band, and we just came back from, it’s all has to do with VIP, unique event ticketing. And we just came back from a cool event, a very well known I. Drummer did a, did a 20 person VIP day and a half thing at his beach house in Florida. And so it was fun to play with him in the living room. One cool story is there’s a, this is the second one. His first one was in February. I. Yeah. And these tickets [00:03:00] go for several thousand dollars a ticket. Right. And because people just want to, they wanna be there. And last time , there was a mom and her daughter, but the daughter has cerebral palsy on the left side of her body. And , so then last year when we were like getting to know everyone, we got to this girl, she’s 16. How did you become a fan of Duncan? And she’s like, I saw some YouTube videos of him drumming and I just fell in love with his energy and whatever. And she goes, it inspired me. I started drumming and it’s actually improved my condition. And Oh wow. So then, that night in the living room. He had her come up and play the drums on her favorite song. And the mom’s like videoing it five feet away, , just sobbing. And, they came back to this one , and , after that experience, she started taking drum lessons and she played again on that favorite song. And you could tell like, this is better. This is, yeah, you’re doing it. So it was cool. That’s a cool moment. That’s the fun part of the business. The downside is, we’re trying to raise money right now, and so we’re just in talks with negotiations with our [00:04:00] lawyer and investors, and it’s the most draining. It just drains your energy to do that, you know, different, different kind of business than our fun little web design businesses. Yeah. Totally different game. And raising money and dealing with investors and holy moly, convincing them and, having them, you know, kind of be overlords over you a little bit, you know? So I, I have like two or three, hopefully four at the max, more weeks of this. And then it’s like, man, when can I just do. The thing that I wanted to start this thing and do, right? Like, I’m just , in the gummy gears of legal garbage right now and just, , that’s a lots a lot. That’s not as bad. To be honest though. I’d much rather go through that than what you’re going through right now. Oh, oh God. I’m in the process of moving 150 websites, y’all, and it’s super fun. , We’ll go into that some other time. Yeah. It’s brutal. We’ll have, I’ll have a whole, , I’m, it’s too fresh. I might [00:05:00] cry. P ts d but yeah, I think we need a podcast episode dedicated to hosting companies and all my thoughts and feelings about that. So, but at the base of all this, since this is the web design empire, you know what makes it a lot less fearful and a lot more stress free when you’re trying to build a Airbnb rental business or you’re chasing some startup, that, according to stats and data is more, most likely to fail, is having a reliable source of income. That isn’t attached to those things. And that is our web design businesses, right? That’s right. Our web design businesses’ will always be there. It funds all of our other hopes and dreams. And I tell folks, I tell students that are going through our break into web, courses that, hey, you know at first when you’re first building your business, yes, the income is a rollercoaster, right? You’re gonna be worried about, it can be, what about next month? Am I gonna have enough work for next month? And then that kind of changes into, okay, what about next quarter or three months? , But then you’re like a year out, you’re like, you know what? I’m not even worried about this [00:06:00] anymore. I have this steady. Incoming flow of leads and for my business. And Kelly, your business, the majority of these leads, 90 some percent of them are either word of mouth, Google searches, or some kind of other partnership with some, you know, for us it’s like a medical group that sends a lot of medical, like physician side gigs. They have a big, huge Facebook group and we’re the recommended place to get a website done. And you can talk to yours here in a second, but the way that this subject came up is our coaching, one of our coaching coachees, said, Hey, there’s this, I’ve heard this argument out there of like, you know, referrals are great, but that’s not the way to build a reliable, amazing business. You need to build a reliable sales funnel. Sellable, I think was one of the words in there too. And sellable, like if, if, you know, so let’s, I think, um, that was part of the original question, but Yes. But go, yeah, go for it. Kind of set it up for us and then we’ll dissect what we think. So basically, the [00:07:00] reason for the title referrals, which what you and I built our business on versus a quote unquote sales machine. Sales machine, right? Or are, or are they the same? Doesn’t matter. Right. So. Let’s go for it. Right? So there’s, there’s a lot to cover. , Actually I think it’s a pretty simple, my ultimate response is quite simple and straightforward. However, I think there’s a lot of factors to cover when I say sales machine, I’m thinking , an ad that goes to a webinar, that goes to a form, that goes to a schedule. You know, an automated system mm-hmm. That cranks out leads at the end. Right. , And that’s how I interpret it. Maybe other people have other, definitions, , but that’s what I think of when I hear the term sales machine is this automated system. And first of all, I think those can work for specific types of businesses. Mm-hmm. If someone’s selling. A product versus a service, versus coaching , , there’s just so many different types of businesses. , I think the sales machines work for specific ones. For a web [00:08:00] design business, an automated sales machine. That includes all of those steps. I don’t think that makes a whole lot of sense. I’m not gonna send my poor prospects to watch a webinar before I’m gonna take a call from them. No way. Yeah, that just wouldn’t make any sense. So I think it depends on the type of business. Okay, we’re talking about web design businesses here, you need to determine , what your niche is. If you do have a niche, niche, whatever I say niche, , I say niche, let’s go with niche. , Niche just feels like pretentious. I don’t know. Like, Ooh, niche. Huh? Niche. Anyway, and I believe everyone has a niche, even if they say they don’t your niche is probably local, small businesses. And to me that is still a niche. So if, if your niche like John and I is local, small businesses, then again, this automated sales machine doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. But if your niche is, plumbers or breweries or, like just this one specific thing that obviously would, you would tap out of your local quick, then perhaps a sales machine does make sense where you can do ads to those specific people, [00:09:00] so. , Depending on how your web design business is set up, perhaps a machine, that’s automated does make sense for you. But again, I think in general, most of our students at least getting started, their business starts as, local small businesses. And in that case, it just doesn’t make a lot of sense. What does make sense is building relationships, with other local small businesses. And , building on your existing network that already is established and continuing relationships with those people. I think the other thing to point out here , these sales machines, versus referrals. I, I think there’s like haters out there, right? Mm-hmm. And like the sales bros, like hate on, not, sorry not to throw men into, it’s fine, but I like the word it’s sales bros. They tend to hate on the referrals and in my opinion, these sales bros that hate on referrals, it’s because they don’t get [00:10:00] referrals. I think that’s true in a lot of ways. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I think , their methods are focused on, sales, sales, sales, and they don’t really care about. Retention necessarily. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what comes to mind is like the SEO guys, right? Because I’ve dipped into this industry a little bit and watching the way a lot of these, digital marketers do business and get business, they’re 99% focused on the sale, the sale, the sale, and like getting that number as high as possible. And they really don’t. I don’t know if they don’t care or they just don’t spend the time or energy focusing on, , customer service or the customer experience. And that retention, which is why, you know, SEO has such raging high turnover. Mm-hmm. Like it’s, , it’s six months max, maybe nine months if you’re super lucky. Whereas, I’ve had clients for 20 years, I’m sure you’ve had clients for 15. And it’s just a totally different, , way [00:11:00] of doing business, in my opinion. Granted, comparing SEO to web design is not totally fair. I get that. But they do go hand in hand a lot of times. So , it’s just an easy adjacent comparison. Thoughts? I’m just rambling at this point. Anything you wanna interject there? Yes. I wrote down a few thoughts here. First of all, the. Making someone watch a webinar to sell them an expensive product. , Right? A custom, a customized, expensive product. It’s the same reason why I’m against AI chatbots for our website. Now, if I was selling a $29. Tool to help your hamstring more flexible. For example, just random, you know, just, just not that I’m speaking from experience here. Yeah. Um,, Then yes, have a chat bot on your website because most of the problems are gonna be, Hey, where’s my order? Hey, it came and it’s broken, or it’s stuff that, that it can handle and you know what? You paid 29 bucks, so you get $29 of service here of support. But if I paid five grand for my website and I come. To ask a question and then it’s a chat [00:12:00] bot on your website. Like, no, or if you’re gonna try to sell me a customized thing and we’re gonna work together on this, and I get a webinar, because it kind of is like what you’re. I don’t get a piece of your time to try to sell me on this. I just think it’s bad from the start. Like , you’re putting it down to the lowest common denominator. And that’s why the turnover is high, because there’s no personal connection . And then the other thing, the reason I have here is I wrote down timing. Maybe when you make that personal connection with someone through networking, maybe they don’t need a website today or even this week, but maybe they will. A while from now. And I think, I think that personal connection is just more, , and then there’s the energy trade off. Like you only have so much time to try to grow your business. So let’s say, however much energy time that is, do I wanna spend it on trying to build this? This non-personal machine that in theory, in theory is gonna be amazing. Or do I spend it connecting with other, local web designers for [00:13:00] overflow work, reaching out to my network’s network, right. Like there’s, there’s a trait you can’t do, plant those seeds, do both. Yeah. You can’t effectively do both of those. And , before we get into the sellable business part, the other thing I wrote down here, I think these, sales machines that, yeah, hey, you have a website business, here’s what you should do. You need to figure out how to get, a hundred people to watch this webinar, right? And out of that five are gonna schedule a meeting with you, and then you close one and now you have this formula. I think people who pitch that are coaches that are no longer doing the thing. Because it’s so out of reality of how it works. I completely agree. Well, and I think a lot of businesses in, what is it, 2024, at the time of this recording, , had a tough year and we’ve talked a little bit about that in other episodes, but I, I don’t necessarily think that this year is tough. It’s just that a couple years ago everyone was buying everything and so, and money and so. Right. And so [00:14:00] now it just seems like everything has gotten so much harder, but in reality, I think it now is just kind of normal. And a couple years ago, everything worked and so, mm-hmm. I think that’s when those sales machines took off. Yeah. And I think a lot of them flat out aren’t working anymore, but. The people who had them working a couple years ago are still trying to, push ’em and sell ’em to other people. , So I think that’s a little bit a, again, like I said in the beginning, there’s so many factors to consider when looking at these arguments. But well, another massive one that we haven’t pointed out yet is, and I don’t have anything to back this up, but I’m just gonna make a crazy claim. And you were talking about , a hundred leads turns into five views turns into one call, whatever. So a hundred cold leads, I would say is the equivalent of maybe one warm referral. It doesn’t even compare. So when you get those a hundred leads and , you’re trying to get that one call from them, guess what? If I get this one warm referral, , I probably already got the call. Like it’s done. You [00:15:00] can’t, you cannot compare these two, sales machines, the automated machine versus just good old referrals and networking quality. Yeah. It’s absolutely. It, the value is not identical. , Extremely different. I think, ultimately, the short answer to the question. Are sales machines better or, referrals better? The answer is , if you have the processes in place, referrals are absolutely, I. Your sales machine, and , it’s not just the referrals, it’s the work you did already to get that referral. Right. It’s the customer service. It’s the customer experience. It’s the efficient processes on the sales end and the project end that make that experience what it was that make that customer want to refer. So in mm-hmm. In short, your entire. Process from prospecting through sales to project is your sales system for those referrals that come [00:16:00] back. , That’s how I feel about it. It absolutely is a sales system fight me and the Google ranking me, fight me Sales bros. Yeah. Yeah. Sales bros. , And the Google ranking and the Google reviews that you’ve racked up throughout the years. Okay. Absolutely. Before we s there’s always an argument for SEO and Google listings like that. It’s just dumb not to do it. So before we swing into the second half of this episode, uh, our sponsor today is of course, break into web, B-R-E-A-K break into web.com. If you wanna escape your cubicle life and. Join us in the lifestyle freedom business of building websites. Check out break into web.com. If you already have broken into web and you want to take your business to multiple six figures, and you’re stuck at that 1, 1 6 figure point, or just six figures, I guess. Mono solo six figure, let’s say. We offer coaching that works. So back to the episode, , but Kelly, here I am. I’m a solo freelancer. I’m doing [00:17:00] everything. I’m the billing person, I’m the account person. I’m building the sites. I’m developing them, I’m launching them. I’m customer service support and the sales person, but I have to build the sales machine. ’cause what if someday I wanna sell my business and I’m not gonna come with my business when I sell it. So without having this proven formula of a hundred webinars equals one sale, how will someone ever. Buy me. What do I do? Well, I know, I know you wanna answer that, but I’ll give it my best shot. Well, we’ll both answer, we’ll both answer it together. But , I felt that was kind of the spirit of the question was are the person that we’re coaching right now, they, they are a one stop. They’re the one person doing everything. And at the time they asked this, they hadn’t started working with subcontract, which is part of the answer, by the way. Right, right. But, but, so for them it was a valid concern of like, well. I don’t have a sellable business right now because I am the business in this the business. Right. And people are, yeah. So, uh, let’s, let’s, let’s just, uh, okay. So a couple, a couple [00:18:00] parts to that. First of all, since we’re talking about a web design business here, the value of that business is in the recurring revenue structure that you have. Mm-hmm. It’s not the projects necessarily, but it’s the business you’ve built on recurring revenue and those hosting and maintenance clients. And so even that alone and her still being a solopreneur, that’s still sellable. Yes. Because those are clients that someone else can take on and like. Pick up where they left off and continue to get that recurring revenue. So that’s a big piece of that. And then the other chunk of that answer is if you do want to work yourself out of it, then yeah, it’s about getting some contractors in place and figuring out a plan moving forward where you are still doing what you enjoy. Doing and you are not doing the things you don’t enjoy doing and getting contractors in place for those, for those pieces so that you can continue to grow. And it’s kind of a, a, a way to cheat grow, [00:19:00] without hiring employees if you don’t wanna do that. Or you can hire employees like John. I’m, I’m unhireable. Once you’ve taste the freelance lifestyle, unemployable Yeah. Hard, hard to go back. Here’s my argument. My argument is, okay, here’s company A that somehow, magically grew their web design business on webinars , and just enough people watching them, and they never signed up for Google. So they don’t rank on Google and they have no Google reviews. Okay. Boom. Now here’s this other company who, they don’t have the sales machine, quote unquote. They don’t do this webinar thing. They don’t do cold calls. They’ve built their business slowly over time and because they’ve been around for so long, they do good SEO practices. They rank on, they’re in the first page of Google results for their area and they have, 50, a hundred, 155 star Google reviews. Now initially their business was. Hey, talk to John over at Artillery Talk to John and slowly that changes to, you gotta check artillery out [00:20:00] or someone finds you on online, they do a search and they find your, they see your website up high in Google. They see all the reviews and they’re like, oh, these people, they don’t even know you’re a solo yet. These people do a great job. I’m going there. My argument is that getting 10 of those leads, a month. It’s way more valuable than getting 10 leads of the webinar cold call. Can’t even compare. Can’t even compare. It’s not even, and your point that, that’s your 0.1 to a hundred. So, so if I’m gonna buy your business, and I see that over the last five years you’ve averaged, you know, 20 warm leads a month coming in, is that gonna stop because you’re not working there anymore and I own your business now. No, it’s gonna, it’s going to, it’s better. You’re buying the reputation. Yeah. It’s so much better. And, I just gotta read, so there’s this, and our student referenced this, uh, this course, this person has, of course, it’s a course, right? A course that they’re selling. And their main thing is here we go, marketing hat. Get your [00:21:00] bro sales voice on. Kelly. Have you ever wondered where your next job is going to come from? Well, sure. Yeah. Back in the beginning. Anyway, if you’re like most web agencies, you let the work come to you. That sounds great in theory, but what it actually means is , you have little to no control over both the quantity and quality of leads in your pipeline. Okay. Lemme stop right there. Alright. We should have started with this ’cause this is, oh my God. That’s it. It’s like, you’ve gotta be kidding me again. My argument is this guy doesn’t get referrals. He doesn’t get referrals. Well. And for him to say. What it means is you have little to no control over both the quantity and quality of your leads. It’s so ridiculous. Okay. When you’re, when you’re blasting cold emails and you’re blasting cold advertisement calls, you don’t have control over the, over the quality. You, you, I mean, way worse. It, it is, especially now that you can’t target as highly as you used to be able to. But yeah, to make that statement is outrageous. A lead coming in from an ad versus a [00:22:00] lead coming in. ’cause a friend told him about you, there’s so much less work you have to do to convince that person to go with you. It’s incomparable. You can, okay, fine. Lemme get back. Okay, so that sounds great in theory, but actually what it means you have little’s no control over both the quantity and quality of leads in your pipeline. This often leads to taking on bad fit projects just to pay the bills. Hey newsflash, everyone’s gonna take bad fit projects to pay the bills. That’s how you find out what the good fits are. We’ve all been there, you know? Now eventually you outgrow it and that’s great, but we’ve, it, it’s just a rite of passage, you know? And he says it’s not a fun place to be. It’s not. It’s not. Okay. That’s true. That’s true On, on that. We, but guess what, Kelly, it doesn’t have to be that way. This challenge will help you take control of the quality and number of leads coming into your business by making prospecting a daily habit that will fill your prospect pipeline. Yeah, we’re for prospecting a daily too, just to your warm network to your network. Yeah. Okay. Or maybe that’s what he’s selling. I [00:23:00] guess we didn’t take this course, John. Maybe that’s what he’s selling. It’s maybe it’s a switch-a-roo here. Well, here’s a student that has a testimonial. Okay. The student has, which, before I read this, my theory is that this person’s either fake and the owner wrote this, or the owner wrote this and told the person, can we say that you said that we slapped your name on this? This here ’cause. ’cause it has all the correct buzzwords. As an owner of companies we would like our customers to say, right? So this challenge really lit a fire under my ass. To take a hard look at the business and decide if I was happy with just getting referrals, living the feast or famine lifestyle, or if I wanted to build something amazing. I chose Amazing. Stop it. Stop. I guess we haven’t shown an amazing, I choose mediocre. I know. I know. Which. We choose gamble, let’s let it ride next month. Who knows if we have clients or not? I don’t care. Let’s, let’s eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow. We may die. Like that’s, that’s not how I feel. I tell you what, I have way more confidence in how many leads we’re gonna get next [00:24:00] month without this quote unquote. So here’s the thing. I have a sales machine. We have a sales machine. Yes. . I had to get that person’s testimonial in. I was deciding not to early about 10 minutes ago. I was like, I don’t think I’m gonna go there. But then I, I, I just gotta go there, there, because my theory was well, this guy doesn’t build websites. He’s selling a course. Okay. Or maybe he does build websites on the side, but he’s obviously selling something and mm-hmm. And he didn’t build his business that, that way, you know? I get it. If you’re selling a little widget thing. Fine blanket the market with ads, but it’s gonna be painful. And we’ve done, we’ve done that, we’ve done that. We’ve done, we’ve done that with our own products. Break into web. We have, we break, break into web. We have course, we’ve tried it with be Superfly. Yeah. It’s hard, y’all, I can’t imagine trying to do it with a web design business. Wow. And it being your main source of, yeah, I would never wanna rely on that. Oh my gosh, no. Of income. Hmm. Hmm. Well, And not to pick [00:25:00] on this one particular course that our student found. Because this is a legit. Controversy that I’ve seen in lots of places, or I maybe not controversy, I see it as a controversy ’cause I think it’s bogus. But people trying to sell something by saying referrals are not the way, to run your business. And it’s like you’re not getting them. Well, it’s assuming that new prospects that, that they don’t care which way they’re sold to and they do. Yes. It’s like, put this popup on your website. You’re gonna generate so much sales when in fact people hate popups. You know what I’m saying? Hate popups. So, so it’s like, sure, I would, I would go ahead and say people hate webinars at this point. That too well, , but it sounds so enlightening to say, oh, it’s so simple. All you gotta do is show this webinar to 500 people and you’re gonna get a hundred leads, and then you’re gonna close five of them. But it’s a bad experience from the get go. It’s not how they wanna be sold to, so that’s, part, and that’s evolving, that’s evolving [00:26:00] quickly, how people wanna be sold to. And it’s different based on the industry , and the demographic , and all that as well. But it’s constantly a moving target, now, some caveats here. Number one, we’re talking about taking a freelance business from. Solo six figs to multi-six figs. Okay. Yeah. And, and the best for that. Now, if we are, if our goal was to, only sell dentist websites and have 20 employees working on those websites. Okay, fine. Maybe you need to, figure something out like this. Yes, but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re correct. Now, on the other hand, what we’re not saying is that, a person who’s named a. Sally Smith and named her web design company, Sally Smith Web Design and never works with subcontractors and never has employees. They’re the sole person the whole time. Are they gonna have a hard time selling the service side of their business? The non hostings recurring side? Yes, absolutely. Because they are the business, you know, and that’s what we told our. Our mentee is that, we just keep changing the term that we call. Yeah, just, I like it. Come up with something different every [00:27:00] time. What she’s working on now is she’s bringing a couple subcontractors in to work on projects. She’s delegating that to them. And my argument too is this, people will say, well. When you go to sell that business, it’d be better to have employees to go to the new owner. No, that’s not necessarily true. Your employees might quit when you sell versus , if I had a couple subcontractors, I can just work that into the deal and say, Hey, you’re gonna have a new person. Wouldn’t care. Yeah, they’re gonna pay you the same that I was , and I would say , there would be a way better chance of a smooth transition with contractors than there would be with employees. Well, you’re trying to work in things into the deal to make the employees stay like, Hey, you’ll get a $10,000 bonus. Yes. But it’s paid out over two years and, you know. Right, right. You’re trying to, versus subcontractors, they just need, they need that work. They need that reliable, which is a great way to start building a web design business is subcontracting for other designers. Like that’s just a great way to do it. Okay. Have we beat this horse enough? I think most of my points all come back to the same point of [00:28:00] referrals. If you’re getting referrals, it’s because you’re doing everything else right? And it’s that doing everything else right? That is a sales machine, customer service. Customer experience getting back to people. I mean, it’s not rocket science that is your machine to get the referrals regularly and that machine generates, I wish there was an easy way for me to pull this up for artillery, but like next month we’re probably gonna get 20 leads without even doing anything different. Mm-hmm. Without making any effort to post on Instagram or LinkedIn or. Whatever., And if you do wanna focus your energy on. Something besides, referrals. Like honing in on , your own processes, it would be building partnerships with adjacent companies, building relationships by adjacent companies. I mean, graph designers, SEO, digital marketers, photographers, like people that , you tend to bring in on projects, [00:29:00] copywriters, focusing on relationships. With them focusing on partnerships with other agencies for overflow work, focusing on those partnerships that will continue to feed that referral funnel, as opposed to just wasting money on ads and webinars and whatever else. And above all, make sure your recurring revenue side of your hosting. Of course, let’s be real hosting and there’s other ways, but I know we have an episode, a whole episode on that. But because it, it is a question mark. If your service side’s gonna sell, if the project building side of your website is gonna sell or not. True, and more than likely, it’s just a, it’s a nice cherry on top of the new buyer gets, because they’re buying all your, they’re buying your book of business, they’re buying your hosting clients, , which is the same as your book of business. And you know what, some most hosting clients, they’re gonna need a new website a year from now, two years from now, whatever. So , they’re also buying that. But , if you get over. One x revenue on your project side of your business. That’s probably not, so I would spend [00:30:00] more time just the referrals network, build your network, and then require hosting, keep those existing clients happy so that they stay on your maintenance plans. Yeah. And that’s what builds the business side For sure. Awesome. Well, with that, thanks for tuning in and joining us today on the Web Design Empire. Also, be sure to check out break into web.com and learn how you can break away from your daily grind. Become a freelance web designer like us, and create the empire you’ve been dreaming of. Don’t wait. Start today. We’ll see you in the next one. Cheers y’all. Bye. Oh, that felt wonky, but good enough.